Should I set the Politics and Religion forum back to open access?

[saint]

Should I set the Politics and Religion forum back to open access? We certainly are at a peak time in politics these days...

[shmokes]

Opt out is a cool idea. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Unless there is a compelling reason, why change what seems to be working ?

I haven't bothered to apply for access since it was restricted, so maybe there has been some change that I have missed.

However, based on the tilted explanation that shmokes gives in the other thread in which he calls people who disagreed with him "emotionally unstable", "---maternal-smurfs---" and "people should be required to wear helmets and mittens while surfing the internet", it would seem that nothing has changed at all.

 

EDIT: To be clear, the fallout from PnR WAS affecting the quality of the discussion elsewhere on the board and, to my mind, saint made the right call in preserving the peace. It doesn't really matter that people shouldn't carry grudges outside of PnR, what mattered is that they did and the other forums suffered. If you have any doubt of the correctness of saint's decision, I encourage you to visit any of the other arcade boards and see the praise BYOAC gets for keeping things friendly. Perhaps an "opt out or saint will opt you out" option will work ... I dunno ... but the rest of the forums are far more important a resource and any decisions should be made with that in mind.

[Gorotsuki]

Vote yes.
The arguments are fun to read.

[shmokes]

Unless there is a compelling reason, why change what seems to be working ?

Wouldn't simply not going to the Politics and Religion section work equally well?  I'm really not trying to antagonize you.  That is a sincere question.  I think that it goes without saying that the current system isn't "working" or this thread would not exist.  What you mean to say is, "why change what seems to be working for me?"  And that seems like a rather selfish way of looking at it.  Again, I'm not trying to be snarky.  I genuinely believe that it takes an emotionally unstable person to want to ruin the PnR section for those who are interested in it because he is unable to exercise the extraordinarily small amount of self-control it would take to simply stay out of that section. 

But now that "opt out" is on the table, I am just amazed at your position.  You could click opt-out and never see PnR again.  It would not exist for you.  Everything would stay the same for you as it is now.  Yet you still want to go out of your way to make sure that other people cannot do something that they enjoy doing, even though it wouldn't affect you at all.  I'm sorry, but that strikes me as emotionally unstable. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Unless there is a compelling reason, why change what seems to be working ?

Wouldn't simply not going to the Politics and Religion section work equally well?  I'm really not trying to antagonize you.  That is a sincere question.  I think that it goes without saying that the current system isn't "working" or this thread would not exist.  What you mean to say is, "why change what seems to be working for me?"  And that seems like a rather selfish way of looking at it.  Again, I'm not trying to be snarky.  I genuinely believe that it takes an emotionally unstable person to want to ruin the PnR section for those who are interested in it because he is unable to exercise the extraordinarily small amount of self-control it would take to simply stay out of that section. 

But now that "opt out" is on the table, I am just amazed at your position.  You could click opt-out and never see PnR again.  It would not exist for you.  Everything would stay the same for you as it is now.  Yet you still want to go out of your way to make sure that other people cannot do something that they enjoy doing, even though it wouldn't affect you at all.  I'm sorry, but that strikes me as emotionally unstable. 

No worries -- you are utterly misinterpreting my position, which is why I added the clarifying edit to my post.

*I* don't have a problem leaving things in PnR -- if you look at the people I had the biggest arguments with, you'll find folks that I call friends and we get along fine elsewhere on BYOAC and the innertubes. Hell, even Wunder and I get along outside of PnR.

To my mind, the important issue is what actually happens to the other forums as a result. I don't give a crap whose fault it is that the poison spreads (and, if it doesn't spread this time, then great!), but if the rest of the forums are adversely affected (as they were before), then I would think that it is *YOU* who are being selfish because *YOU* want to have a good political debate and don't care about all of that arcadey stuff.

I'm not trying to restrict anybody's rights or free speech, but rather am concerned about protecting what I deem to be the best parts of this place (which is pretty much everything outside of PnR).

I'm not afraid of PnR -- I'm afraid of what it does to the rest of this place.

 

[shmokes]

in which he calls people who disagreed with him "emotionally unstable", "---maternal-smurfs---" and "people should be required to wear helmets and mittens while surfing the internet",

BTW, I said nothing about people who disagree with me.  I referred to people who cannot bear reading political debate, but are nevertheless unable to stop themselves from entering clearly marked political debate threads and reading political debate post after political debate post, and often creating posts themselves -- all this even when they have to go out of their way to go into a special Politics n Religion section in order to access these threads.  And then they complain to the site admin as though the site made them do it.  This is what I referred to as emotionally unstable.

[CheffoJeffo]

I agree with you that there are people who shouldn't go in there and, if they do, they shouldn't cry "saint made me do it". To argue otherwise would be silly and that whole matter is best left to people who get paid to make arguments about things that aren't particularly important ... oh wait ... 

I don't actually care if they do click and then cry "saint made me do it" ... so long as they don't ---fudgesicle--- up the rest of the forums.

That is what happened last time and is, as I recall, exactly why saint cut off access -- he didn't cave (since, obviously, he could just restrict access for those people who cried).

[shmokes]

I'm afraid of what it does to the rest of this place.

The thing is . . . this didn't happen.  I was here.  I mean, I'm not saying it never happened, but it was never an issue.  Like you said, you get along with Wunder.  I've helped Dartful on multiple occasions.  I'm sure that you could point to some individual incident of a PnR grudge manifesting in another forum, but it was never a serious issue.  And it doesn't take PnR to have things get wild with a Xiaou or Ummon or Tommy.  It doesn't take PnR for Randy to trash an Ultimarc product announcement thread.  These things happen.  And they even suck.  But you don't necessarily have to take a scorched earth approach to this stuff.  Reports of PnR "poisoning" the rest of the forum are greatly exaggerated.

And I believe saint cut off access in response to call after call to cut it off.  Over and over again there were long debates in the forum discussion section.  It would get shot down and then a few weeks later a new thread would pop up, and on and on.  And I imagine there may have eventually been an incident or two that made saint say, "okay, whatever, let's give this a shot."  But it was never an issue.  There was never a time when PnR was having a measurable effect on the rest of the forum.  That just didn't happen.

[CheffoJeffo]

We're going to have to agree to disagree -- I thought that there was carryover and saw that it cleared up after the restriction. Your mileage apparently does vary, although other people saw the same problems I did, so your unilateral declaration that it didn't happen is not the absolute that you claim.

I am kinda saddened that you think that saint caved to pressure as opposed to making a decision that he thought was best for the board. If there is one thing that I have seen, since I haven't been banned and I'm sure that people have demanded it, it is that saint doesn't cave.

FWIW, I don't have a problem with opening PnR up (hell, you and I are probably pretty close politically ... or at least as close as a Canauckstanian and 'Merican can be), so long as it doesn't hurt the rest of the board.

And it doesn't take PnR to have things get wild with a Xiaou or Ummon or Tommy.  

No fair -- I'm still working on Xiaou!

 

[shmokes]

I am kinda saddened that you think that saint caved to pressure as opposed to making a decision that he thought was best for the board. If there is one thing that I have seen, since I haven't been banned and I'm sure that people have demanded it, it is that saint doesn't cave.

Lol . . . a bit passive aggressive.  saint will be okay.  I promise.   

[danny_galaga]

Vote yes.
The arguments are fun to read.

Your avatar is fun to look at (",)

[danny_galaga]

Oh, and i say YES, but with a minimum 10 posts as prequisite. Just to screen out blow ins from else where...

[Ginsu Victim]

I say keep it like it is (which was my vote) or at least opt out, so I can remove it (because if it's there, I'll go in and I don't want to).

Even with opt out, it's open to all, so I say a higher posting minimum than what danny_galaga said is in order. I think 50 minimum is more appropriate.

[shmokes]

I think 50 minimum is more appropriate.

The point of a minimum prerequisite is to protect the people in PnR from trolls.  If you would opt out why would you possibly prefer a 50 minimum to a 10 minimum?

[Ginsu Victim]

Well even if I'm not going to be in there, I can still be concerned about keeping the riff-raff out.

[shmokes]

Thanks.  That's very sweet.

[Ginsu Victim]

My main thing is not having it spill over into the forums like it did in the past. Some people can't help but bring that crap up even though it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[shmokes]

My main thing is watching Oprah. 

[shmokes]

Honestly opt out strikes me as incredibly comical, considering PnR has its own forum.  I personally think that EE was perfectly capable of separating political debate from the substantive content of BYOAC.  But separating the political debate even from the EE forum into its very own specialized forum exclusively for PnR ought to be enough.  You can opt out of it the same way you opt out of teenbeat.com or doratheexplorer.com or realclearpolitics.com every single day of your life.  Just don't go there, for crying out loud.  And if you DO go there, take some bloody responsibility for your actions.  Your exposure to unwanted political discourse is your own fault.  You had to go out of your way to seek it out.  So don't go about ruining good things for other people because of your own personal lack of self control.

Nevertheless, I voted for opt out as an acknowledgement of the fact that Ginsu Victim exists and will continue to try to ruin things for others rather than simply addressing his own irresponsible behavior.

[Ginsu Victim]

Nevertheless, I voted for opt out as an acknowledgement of the fact that Ginsu Victim exists and will continue to try to ruin things for others rather than simply addressing his own irresponsible behavior.

 

I just wanted to have an opt out because if the forum is there, I'll click it, and then I'll be hooked. I don't want to spend even MORE time here, especially arguing with people.

[CheffoJeffo]

Honestly opt out strikes me as incredibly comical, considering PnR has its own forum.  I personally think that EE was perfectly capable of separating political debate from the substantive content of BYOAC.  But separating the political debate even from the EE forum into its very own specialized forum exclusively for PnR ought to be enough.  You can opt out of it the same way you opt out of teenbeat.com or doratheexplorer.com or realclearpolitics.com every single day of your life.  Just don't go there, for crying out loud.  And if you DO go there, take some bloody responsibility for your actions.  Your exposure to unwanted political discourse is your own fault.  You had to go out of your way to seek it out.  So don't go about ruining good things for other people because of your own personal lack of self control.

Nevertheless, I voted for opt out as an acknowledgement of the fact that Ginsu Victim exists and will continue to try to ruin things for others rather than simply addressing his own irresponsible behavior.

It is funny that you use terms like "scorched earth" and "ruining things for others" as if there was some great inpenetrable wall surrounding PnR with myriad locks, puzzles and traps.

Is sending a simple PM really that much of an inconvenience that it ruins your experience here ?

 

[shmokes]

Yes.  PnR is a ghost town.  The requirement of sending a PM to request entry ruined PnR.  Completely.

[DillonFoulds]

I went opt-out. No problem for people to -not- go there! I wouldn't mind seeing all the hub-ub that goes on in that "dreaded place", but don't expect me to actively participate in any discussions within. I'm not politically charged, but I can appreciate differing viewpoints on matters.

[shmokes]

 

I just wanted to have an opt out . . .

And yet . . .

I say keep it like it is (which was my vote)

and . . .

a higher posting minimum . . . is in order.  I think 50 minimum is more appropriate.

[Ginsu Victim]

You quoted me out of order, though. I said I liked it how it is, but if push comes to shove, an opt out sounds alright.

I've changed my vote to opt out.

"No! Save us from the horror!" is a bit too extreme in its wording anyway.

[shmokes]

Sweet . . . one more vote.  I hope this opt-out thing is an actual option and not just something that would be a great idea but is not currently supported by the forum software.

[Malenko]

I say delete the forum, this is arcade controls not politics and religion. People like to sneak as much out of that section into the regular forum; like your pic quote of "Blasphemy is a victimless crime", which by the way is a very cock faced way of putting down all religions and not just mine.


I think its fine how it is, request for access. If no one wants in, then odds are no one wants in. 6 active memebrs sounds like 6 too may.

I might be a "---maternal-smurf---" but I dont need mittens or a helmet to use the intertubes. I dont like the wording of "save us form the horror" either but the other 2 options dont appeal to me at all.

yes yes you can retort with "then dont go there" but I can retort to you with "go to a forum that's purpose is to discuss PnR"

[shmokes]

So Malenko, let me see if I understand your position.  It sounds like you're saying that the Everything Else section and the Politics n Religion section should be permanently deleted?

[Ginsu Victim]

Are there really only 6 members or is that just an exaggeration?

[polaris]

Are there really only 6 members or is that just an exaggeration?

no its more than 6, but we all know each other pretty well by now, well enough for example for me to know that shmokes is in one of his moods at the moment 

[Ginsu Victim]

no its more than 6, but we all know each other pretty well by now, well enough for example for me to know that shmokes is in one of his moods at the moment 

Come on. It's obvious to us all.

[shmokes]

As for daily contributors I'd say you have Mr. C, Dexter, Patrickl, Wunder.  I used to be one, but my posting there has dropped off sharply and I'll frequently go weeks at a time without posting there now, and when I am participating it's usually only half-heartedly in one or two threads.  On top of that you have periodic posts from Dartful, Ed, Frizzle, Saint, pinballjim, polaris.  A few others make occasional appearances ,e.g., Fredster, who used to post multiple times per day, will show up and post something once or twice a year.  

I wouldn't be surprised if 6 is an exaggeration of the average number of people contributing on a given day.  

[Malenko]

So Malenko, let me see if I understand your position.  It sounds like you're saying that the Everything Else section and the Politics n Religion section should be permanently deleted?

No, that isnt what I wrote.

[shmokes]

Right . . . I had to extrapolate the part about the Everything Else section based on your strong position against discussion of non-arcade-related things being discussed on an arcade message board.*




*just between you and me and don't tell anyone, but it was actually a rather backhanded remark.   

[Malenko]

Right . . . I had to extrapolate the part about the Everything Else section based on your strong position against discussion of non-arcade-related things being discussed on an arcade message board.*




*just between you and me and don't tell anyone, but it was actually a rather backhanded remark.    

I'll take the bait *sigh*

I don't think the subject matter of PnR should discussed on here. It was sectioned off for a reason and since it was ostracized from the "normal" parts of the forum things have been going rather swimmingly. Now there will always be users like tommy, xaiou, genesim,etc even without PnR but the calibur of the user has nothing to do with what sub sections are available. And people like you, will post what you want where you want (again referencing your tactless picture caption) and for some reason fight this dilligently over something only a handful of members seem to be active on.

Also, lumping "Everything Else" in with "Politics and Religion" is a fallacy, they obviously cover different things since they have their own independant sections. Also, I dont have a "strong position" of discussing non arcade related  things on an arcade forum, just not discussing politics and religion.  Again, its not under the "Everything Else" umbrella so please refrain from lumping them together in any future posts on the topic.

Also, extrapolating something and just trying to be a ---uvula--- to try and prove a meger point arent the same thing. I'm an ---uvula--- all the time, but at least I have the testicular fortitude to fess up to it.

[shmokes]

I'm an ---uvula--- all the time, but at least I have the testicular fortitude to fess up to it.

Oh . . . I don't know.  I don't really think I'm too much of an ---uvula---, though judging by my tactless picture caption I don't discount the possibility that it may be a debatable proposition. 

By the way, did you say that Politics and Religion are not covered by the term Everything Else?  I'm going to have to check out a dictionary when I get a moment.  I could have sworn that I knew the definition of Everything Else off the top of my head, but maybe it means something other than what I thought.   

But in the future I endeavor to comply with your demands.  I will diligently seek to understand how dog fighting, falling through ceilings, cheesecake, the crappy job market and recipes revolving around bacon are appropriate topics for an arcade message board.  And health care, the post office, intelligent design in the public school curriculum, death trains, and government censorship are obviously inappropriate.

Wait . . . I think I'm being backhanded again.  Sorry.

[CheffoJeffo]

And here you told me that PnR having a negative effect on the rest of the board was a fallacy ... we can't even have a conversation about accessing PnR without people calling each other names and being offended.

[shmokes]

Maybe someone should report whoever started this inflammatory thread.  Seems like whoever it was should at least get a warning, if not an outright ban.

[Ginsu Victim]

I don't think we can blame the topic, Cheffo.